INTERVIEW WITH H.W.L. POONJA

So, I noted down the address, and I had no money to go. Then I went to town and I found a paper, and in the wanted column it was written that, "We want some Army ex-officer to work in Madras for our canteen", who was the contractor in the Cheshire Regiment, which was transferred from Peshawar to Madras. So, I noted down the address and I went there. Under these circumstances I have gone there.

Question: What was your state of mind and inner experience when you initially entered the Maharshi's presence?

Papaji: When I contacted the Maharshi in the hall, and then I asked him a question: "Can you give me the experience of enlightenment?", he kept quiet. Again I asked him, again he kept quiet. So, I was not very much impressed with his not speaking to me.

Question: Did Bhagavan give you a specific teaching directly?

Papaji: It was a very direct teaching, not indirectly, through the senses or any sign. He didn't speak a word. So, by this I mean, a direct teaching from heart to heart, without any word. This is the direct teaching.

Question: How did it act upon you at that time of you life?

Papaji: So, it worked very well, because I had never seen any teacher who could speak directly from heart to heart. Everybody speaks through words or reads some scripture, but he didn't do either of these.

Question: What happened to you when you entered? What was inside you?

Papaji: I felt some vibration in my heart and then my doubts disappeared. So, this was the first time I met this kind of teacher. All others, they speak. He doesn't speak.

Question: Are Ramana's teachings direct and accessible to all seekers?

Papaji: No, it's not available to all seekers. He's of no use for any seekers who have not prepared for millions of incarnations before. It is of no use, but then a man who has been working for enlightenment for many, many life times, he can be eligible to understand him. As Buddha did, for as I read in the "Nirvan Sutra", that 253 times, Buddha had been with the teachers. "It is not that. Enlightenment is something else". And, finally he goes to Bodh Gaya and sat under a tree and found enlightenment. And after that he got up and went for five days around that bodhi tree in appreciation of what he got. Ananda, his disciple, comes and asks him, "What did you get? How did you get it?" He kept quiet. He didn't speak at all.

Question: Can you speak about the path of Self-enquiry and how it is practised?

Papaji: Yes. Self-enquiry is to enquire into your own Self, from where the Source is, from where the enquiry arises. Follow the Source and return to that unknown place where it begins.

Question: So, it's something that happens all the time?

Papaji: No, only once. When you arrive there, then you will know that this is the place which gives you happiness and peace, and makes you keep quiet. And he finds himself there, not by words. By himself, he knows that this is the Source of me, and the Source of all the beings that appear in the universe.

Question: How does Self-surrender compliment the practice of Self-enquiry?

Papaji: So, Self-surrender means, "surrender your ego to the Self". It doesn't mean that you have to surrender to someone else. Surrender your ego to the Self itself, and then you will keep quiet.

Question: It's the same as surrendering your ego to the unknown? Is the Self like the unknown?

Papaji: Self is unknown. It cannot be known by any person. If it can be known, it becomes an object. It's not an object, neither a subject. Therefore, it is called 'unknown'. Nobody knows it, you see.

Question: How would you describe Bhagavan to someone who never met him?

Papaji: I will suggest to him, "You will see Bhagavan, which is your own Self. Then you will know who Bhagavan is. He lives within your own heart." And the Self will speak to you directly, and not indirectly. You will be satisfied because your doubts will be removed from some unknown person inside your own heart. And if you cannot understand, then He will take another form of a person to speak to you directly by word. But, if you understand, then there is no need for any person to tell you.

Question: Has the Maharshi's physical demise made a difference in the guidance that is available to seekers following the path he laid down?

Papaji: It doesn't make any difference whether he is alive or whether he is no more now. It doesn't make any difference, because it is not the form or the person that gives you satisfaction. And for those who want to seek the path that he laid, it is always there. That is, to keep quiet and find out who you are, and find out what is the Source of this Universe and from where does it come. So, this will give you satisfaction.

Question: How would you describe the place of Ramana Maharshi in the great tradition of Indian saints and sages?

Papaji: Definitely, it is an ashram, a place where people have been going in the past. It's very traditional in India that that place itself is sanctified, where a realised man has tread on that land. That land itself is very sacred for those who seek, and it attracts the seekers from all over the world to that place. Like in Ramanasramam, the teacher is no more there, but people from all over the world are going there and they get peace of mind, and it will continue like this.

Question: What advice would you give a person who is just starting out in spiritual life, specifically regarding the application of the teachings of Ramana?

Papaji: Ramana has no teaching at all. He only pulls you from outside, from the senses which are attracted with other things. It attracts from inside, so that you will know your own Self, from within your own self, and not through any words or any statements given in the Upanishads.

Question: What role does the guru play in the life and teachings of Ramana Maharshi?

Papaji: The guru plays the part to show you once, the teaching that the Self is within your own self and you have not to find it anywhere else. This is the role of the guru, to stop your search for your Self anywhere else, outside of your own heart. So, this is the role of the guru. That is very important, you see.

Question: Where does the seeking start from?

Papaji: No, no. It means that you are your own guru and not someone who is outside, who teaches you. And this can be known by one who has really understood it, not to anyone else. Guru is within you and the Self is that guru, not known, not outside of any man. So, you will keep quiet. You know that, "I am the guru and the Self is the guru itself, and there is no difference between the Self and the guru". And you will stop your search outside and get abiding peace within your own Self. This has to be practised and not just listened to or read somewhere.

Question: The practice, does it come naturally by itself, or does the individual have to do something?

Papaji: No, no, you have not got to do anything.

Question: So, the practice comes by itself?

Papaji: Yes. It is very clear inside. When you have no doubt, there is peace and why do you want anything else, from anywhere?

Question: Bhagavan often spoke of returning to the Source. What is the easiest way to return to this Source and abide in it?

Papaji: The easiest way to return to the Source is you look at the mind, that it is not going to be attracted by anything outside, and if you keep quiet, a thought will come: "Where is my Source?" Don't go outside, but keep quiet. In this quietness, the mind will automatically return to its Source. Having returned there, the mind is lost and there is no mind now to search for the light or wisdom anywhere else, and there will be a tremendous fountain of peace. And all doubts are cleared and he will keep quiet, not by tongue but by his heart. His ego is absolutely finished. This is called peace and returning to the Source.

Question: If you were to sum up the legacy of Ramana Maharshi in a few words, what would you say?

Papaji: I will only say, "Go to Ramana Maharshi himself, directly, not even in Tiruvannamalai, nor any form of the Maharshi. Return to formlessness, which is your own Self." This advice I will give you, and this will be available anywhere, in any part of the world. Just keep quiet.

Question: Could you explain how Bhagavan's potent silence helped the seeker to see the transience of the mind and taste his true nature?

Papaji: Bhagavan was already always silent, and this is called the transient teaching, not by mind. This is everyone's true nature, to keep quiet. It doesn't allow your mind to attach itself to any other person, to any other word or to any other teaching. Maintain absolute quietness. In that quietness, one feels very happy and peaceful [laughs].

Question: Would you share with us several reminiscences you have of the Maharshi?

Papaji: This would take, I think if I go to describe the reminiscences of the Maharshi, it will take many hours, but you can pick up what I speak always from different books. This book of Interviews by David Godman, and others also. And, The Truth Is by Yudhishtara also will help. So, these reminiscences I cannot describe in a few hours, you see. It takes all my life in describing it [laughs]. So, this can be picked up from many books about the reminiscences of this great sage which appeared in this present century.

Question: There's not one story you can tell us for this film?

Papaji: This story alone is enough, that did he appear to me at my own house. And then I had no money to go to the South. I had spent all the money in search of gurus. It means that I was very thirsty for light or for someone to come to me and give me guidance. And then, how could I get a job from an Army canteen contractor who lives in Peshawar? All this happened! The Self helps every seeker like this. And when I went to the South, and there I saw this man [Ramana] and I was not very happy, because this was the man who came to me in Punjab. If he had to give me a teaching, he could very well have given it there, itself, in Punjab. Why did he give his own address to me to go there? So, I was not very happy about it. And then, I left him and I returned to my job in Madras, and there again he came into my vision and then called me there, "You come back and go to that man." So I went there again. It was the same man in my vision, again. And then again, I was not satisfied. I left him and I went on the other side of Arunachala, to Annamalai, and stayed there.

So, while going, I wanted to see him [Ramana] again. There was some attraction to him, even though I may not have liked him. So, I said to one man, "He's just a fraud. He is not a real man." He said, "What are you speaking about? I said, "This man came to Punjab and gave me, out of his own arrogance, his own address. "Come to see me."" He said, "For the last fifty years he has not moved from this place." He was a Parsi gentleman, and his name was Franji, who was the owner of this Vallington Cinemas Group all over India. So, he said, "You come and I will introduce you to the manager [of the ashram]", who was his younger brother. And then he told me, "He never moved anywhere, but some people have come and have told us the same story like you, that he appeared."

"Once", he said, "he appeared to a woman belonging to Hyderabad." And she was sick. And then, she wanted to go to Ramana Maharshi, to see him, but she was critically sick and the doctor said that she is going to die. But she wanted to see him, but she said, "Now I am not going to see him because I am on the deathbed." So, there, somehow, someone comes and gave medicine, put it in her mouth, and slowly she recovered. Then she went to Tiruvannamalai, and she saw that the Maharshi was the same doctor who gave the medicine to her [laughs]. And there she spoke. And this brother, Niranjananda Swami, he's called Chinna Swami, he told several stories like this.

There was an American, from California, one woman who wanted to see him, but she had no money. And then, "How to go to India, for the first time, an unknown country and no money for the travel?" So, oneday, when she returned home, the money was lying on her table, enough money, [laughs]. So these stories often happen, but it happens to those who are very serious and have been working for many, many incarnations in their life. For them, the Self works, maybe in the form of a person, a friend or whatever it is. This is how the help comes, but one has to be very seriously in search of his or her own Self. It works very well. So, the best advice I give is that, instead of going to any guru, stay where you are, wherever, in your house, anywhere, and just look that you have no other desire for anything except to know who you are. And this often happens in many cases, [laughs], in satsang. Many others have written to me, saying that "you appeared to me in a dream and you gave answers to all my questions, and my doubts are no more there. I am happy. Should I visit you or not?" So, these are often questions that arise. Okay. Om.