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So,
there is no way I can separate myself from what is
happening out there and what is happening inside.
If there is no separateness from what you are
looking at, there is no way you can tell yourself
what is happening outside or what is happening
inside. There is no inside and outside there. The
physical eye does not look at that as "white", or
never does it say "it is dark". The sensory
perceptions do not translate anything whatsoever
about what is happening out there or inside of me.
So, there is no way I can separate myself from what
I am looking at, out there, or inside of me. I can
say, "This is me", "This is not me", "I am happy",
"I am unhappy", "I am greedy", "I am not greedy",
"I am jealous", "I am not jealous." They have no
meaning at all to me.
Question: So, do you not have any
identification with things that happen in your
everyday life?
U.G.: No, I don't like to use the word
identification. I never translate that within the
framework of the knowledge I have. The need arises
only when there is a demand from outside. They are
never self-initiated at all. It's an automatic
thing. For some reason, the space between the cause
and effect relationship doesn't operate all the
time. So, when there is a demand, then I can say
that that is probably the cause of this and this is
the result of that cause, but actually there is no
space between cause and effect. So the instrument
which we use, that is, thinking, or even thoughts,
are born out of the cause and effect relationship
and there is no way you can understand anything
without creating the space between the cause and
effect.
For example, death itself is a concept. The body
does not know that it is alive at this moment and
you are not there to preside over your own death.
So, for all practical purposes, there is no way I
can tell myself that I am living, that I am alive.
If you ask me the question, "Are you alive or are
you dead?", I would certainly say that, "I am
alive." Why I say "I'm alive", is because of what
I'm taught by the physiologists and what the
doctors tell us. I am able to talk and respond and
so because of that, they conclude that I am a
living being. That is the common knowledge that is
passed onto us, but there is no way that I can
experience the fact that this is a living organism.
No way. So, when it is dead, all the knowledge that
we have has to come to an end.
We are only interested in one thing: "How?"
Everyone asks the question,"How?" This word should
be eliminated from all languages! "How?" means that
you want to know. By knowing more and more, you
have maintained the continuity of this knowledge.
So, you don't want that to come to an end, you see.
We know a lot, but at the same time we are all the
time asking this question, "How?"
Question: When you were young, did you know
what you were looking for?
U.G.: I was actually and factually looking
for a man like me who is here now. If I say, "Like
a man like me", you will throw the question at me:
"Do you know what you are like?" Something vaguely
like this. So I had to reject everybody, you see.
Not that I said to myself that I am looking for a
man like this guy who is sitting here, but actually
when I said to myself, "This is the one you are
looking for", then he disappeared, completely and
totally.
One day I said to myself, "Why the hell have I
wasted 49 years of my life wanting to be
enlightened?" I then said to myself. "Now, you are
an enlightened man. You are in the same state as
all those spiritual teachers: Buddha, Jesus,
everybody." So, that hit me so hard. "Until
yesterday, you told yourself that you wanted to be
an enlightened man like all those people. Now you
tell yourself that you are an enlightened man, that
you are in the same state as all those spiritual
teachers." It hit me so hard. I said to myself, "It
is the teachers who say that you yourself are not
enlightened because of the knowledge that they have
passed on to me on how an enlightened man
functions. So, it is the same knowledge that tells
me now that I am an enlightened man. So there is
nothing to this experience." I asked myself, "So,
how the hell do you know that you are an
enlightened man?" And then, this started like a
whirlpool. It went on. "How the hell do you know
that you are in the same state as all those
people?" It went on and on and on and on for
fifteen minutes until it just stopped all of a
sudden, and what I was left with, that I really
don't know. What am I left with now? It's not out
of modesty that I am saying this. There is no way I
can tell myself, "Who are you? What are you? What
is there?"
Question: Would you say that there was no
longer something missing, that there was no longer
the feeling that you had to find something?
U.G.: Nothing, you see.
Question: So, it was complete?
U.G.: It was finished. And then the
strangest thing from then on was the senses took
over. And then, I discovered the real way the
senses operate. There was no transmitter who was
saying, "That is a bright sun" or "It is dark" or
"This is hard" or "This is soft." I was looking at
the cow there in field, and I asked Valentine, who
was sitting next to me on the bench, "What is
that?" She said, "A cow." And after another five
minutes, again, like a child, I asked her, "What is
that, Valentine?" She was so disgusted. "How many
times do I have to tell you that that is a cow?
Don't you know that?" You see, in the beginning it
intrigued me. I didn't even know what that was.
Now, I'm in the same situation and I never know
what I'm looking at. If you ask me the question,
"What is that?", I would say "It is a cow."
Question: But, when the thoughts came into
your mind, did everything...
U.G.: One difference is that there is no way
I can draw a line and tell myself and tell others
that this was the way I was functioning before and
this is the way I am functioning now. There is no
way I can draw a line. I always use this crude
simile: after wash, before wash. There is no way to
know how I was functioning. But basically, I tell
you, that there is no change in me at all, except
that the demand, you see, that I wanted to be
something different from what I thought I was. That
is the only thing that is missing. And another
thing is that there is no way I can create an image
inside of me of what you look like. If I turn
towards the wall, away from you, this camera
[pointing to his eyes] is focused on that
wall and there is no way I can create an image of
what you look like. No way. And if I turn to this
side again, and look at you, there is no need for
me to translate and tell myself, "That is you, and
that you are wearing blue jeans." Never do I tell
myself all this because there is no need for me
now.
So there is no way I can create an image. Although
I have known Paul for thirty years, I don't
remember what he looks like, but when he's here in
front of me, the computer throws up the picture and
recognises him, but it never tells itself that that
is Paul. It is not because I don't know. The data
bank, the memory bank is not in any way influenced
by the translator or the one who is bringing out
the knowledge to know. In that sense, there is no
way I can create an image of anything, of what it
looks like. It's impossible for me.
There is no such thing as total attention, at all.
It is just not possible. For example, if you look
at that curtain which is moving with the wind. It
is the one thing that is demanding your attention.
I never tell myself what the eyes are looking at
and there is no way I can be separated from what is
there. I cannot separate myself from what the eyes
are looking at unless there is a need for that. And
that need arises only from somebody else who asks
me something. Do you understand? So never are my
actions self-initiated. Never. So, the moment the
thought is born there, the action is over. The
separation occurs only when the knowledge comes in
and tells me that, "That is a white curtain." You
see, otherwise where is the need for me to tell
myself that? So, why we do it is very simple. It is
because we have to maintain the continuity of
knowledge. That is the only reason. For example,
you say, "That is white and that is blue", or "You
are this and that", and you go on and on and on.
That need is the only thing that is there; it is
not the "I", not the "self", not the "Atman".
Nothing is there, except the need to maintain the
continuity of the knowledge you have about things
out there and the things here [pointing to
himself].
So the only thing I do these days is only to talk
about how these senses are functioning. This body
is born with an extraordinary intelligence,
unparalleled intelligence. And there is no way you
can match this with any amount of knowledge you
have. You cannot. So, whatever you think is good
for this body, whatever ideas you are putting into
this body, it is rejecting. That is why it doesn't
need to know anything, it doesn't need to have
anything more. That applies to every area of our
existence. That's why I brush aside the whole
medical technology. I have never been to a doctor,
I don't eat anything that anybody recommends and I
say emphatically that modern day doctors are the
modern day witches, and modern day medical
technology is the modern day witchcraft, as far as
I am concerned. Whatever they think is good for the
body, I don't eat. I eat that oatmeal there
[pointing to the table]. That is the latest
I find, it's called "Super Fast". You can find it
only in London. I have one bowl, a small bowl and
then pour double cream, triple cream, quadruple
cream and I add a tiny weenie bit of frozen
pineapple juice, which I don't get anywhere except
in China. That's why I go to China. They have
international supermarkets. So, otherwise I don't
take fruit juices, I don't eat any vegetables.
Nothing. You see, this body needs some energy, some
basic thermal units. You see, that's how I would
put it [laughing]. And that one bowl of
oatmeal porridge with a lot of cream, supplies the
energy that the body needs. I don't take walks and
no exercise is necessary. I have survived eighty
years. So nothing of what we consider to be good
for the body is actually good for this body.
So, what I am stressing all the time is how the
body, freed from this strangled hold of culture,
functions. That's all that I am describing. And
there is no way you can control the functioning of
this body. Nothing you can do, you see. The body
doesn't actually need all that we feed it. It is a
pleasure movement. We eat for our pleasure. That's
a fact.
Question: Is there such a thing as
Reality?
U.G.: No. Even if the scientists are trying
to assert that they know Reality better than all
the spiritual teachers and metaphysicists put
together. There is no way you can experience the
Reality of anything. And I maintain and assert with
all the emphasis at my command, that which you do
not know, you cannot experience. What you do not
know is a concept, you see.
Question: Some people use the term "pure
subjectivity" to describe Reality.
U.G.: Philosophers have talked about pure
perception. There cannot be any perception, let
alone pure perception, without the perceiver. These
are all the games that we play with ourselves and
with others. There cannot be any perception without
the perceiver. And why talk of pure perception, I
don't understand? So, this is also the way the
Indians have dealt with this problem. One disciple
tells others that, "My guru is in the turiya state,
the highest state." And according to me, the turiya
state is Alzheimer's disease. You see, they don't
have any problems, they don't recognise anything,
they don't experience anything. Valentine had that,
she was touching everything to establish a
relationship with the things around her. The sense
of touch is the most important sensory activity.
Children begin with that, and then all the other
four senses follow.
So, that is why the people who are thinking all the
time are practically blind, in the sense that they
have never looked at anything in their life. For
example, that fellow has never looked at her, or
she at him [pointing to a couple in the
room], because the only way he looks at her, or
her at him, is with the knowledge she has about him
and you project that knowledge on that person, but
actually there is no way the physical eye can look
at anything. You have to have knowledge about that.
We project that knowledge on what we are looking
at. So, in exactly the same way, the Reality they
are talking about is something which cannot be
experienced at all, or known at all unless you use
the knowledge you have about the Reality of things,
whether it is a scientist or a religious man
talking about Reality, or pure perception. There
can't be any perception first of all, let alone
pure perception. So, these are all theories, you
see.
You have people talking about God. All the
theologies that we are burdened with: the
ontological, the teleological, the cosmological
proofs of the existence of God. Oh, my God, why do
we break our heads with all that knowledge? Because
I have more knowledge than you have so I feel
superior. I have verbal superiority. Shakespeare
had only four thousand words in his memory
[laughing]. And now, how many millions do
we have.
Question: What exactly is awakening?
U.G.: There is no such thing as awakening
because I can never tell myself, "I am awake."
Question: So, then what happened to you when
you were 49 years old?
U.G.: There is no difference between the
waking, dreaming and the sleeping states. There is
no difference. I don't ever tell myself at anytime,
"I am awake." I don't tell myself, "There is light
outside", or "It gets dark in the night." If you
asked me, "Are you awake?", then I use the
knowledge that is given to me of how a wakeful man
functions. And I don't dream at all. There is no
need for me to dream. I also don't sleep for eight
hours. I'm like a cat, I take cat naps. I go to
sleep at ten o'clock and wake up ten minutes later.
And then again at eleven o'clock probably I go to
sleep. So there is no way that I can say , "I am
asleep, or awake or dreaming." There are no dreams.
If you cannot create an image while you are awake,
there is no way you can create images while you are
sleeping. So there is no way. Someone else can say
that I'm sleeping or that I'm even snoring, but I
can't say that about myself.
You cannot tell yourself anything while you are
asleep. It is only when you wake up that you can
relate the so-called wakeful state to the state
that existed before, the sleep state. You say, for
example, that you feel good because you slept well.
You attribute that to sleeping well. You didn't
sleep well, you had a disturbed night, the way you
were telling me about last night. You didn't sleep
well. With reference to the state that you think
you are in at the present moment, otherwise you
cannot tell yourself anything about your sleep,
whether you were asleep, or in deep sleep, or
disturbed sleep or that you were dreaming. So, for
me that problem doesn't arise because I don't know
that I am awake. Immediately, the senses are
functioning at their peak capacity all the time,
and they slow down, very slowly, because it has to
renew itself all the time. So, your eyes may be
open but you see nothing there for a fraction of a
second. You see nothing, you listen to nothing. So,
it has to slow down, and then once it stops
[snapping his fingers], if you look at
things, it is not possible for you to look at
because you are not looking at anything. If you
say, "That is light", you are not looking at it.
You are projecting the knowledge you have by
telling me that it is bright and sunny. Otherwise,
the physical eye never translates that as "bright"
or "dark". If you ask me, I will say, "It is
bright." If it is too bright, you can close your
eyes or you can turn to some other side.
Automatically, the organism has tremendous
intelligence to protect itself. It knows how to
protect itself and how to survive. So, you have no
part to play in the functioning of this body. You
are not that. And then, you see, the intelligence
that is there takes over and takes care of
itself.
You know there is something very strange about
this. The one thing that has happened, if I can say
that it has happened, [I don't even know if
anything has happened], is that you are not
translating anything there at all, never. The
translator is absent, totally absent. And along
with the translator, the selectivity also has gone.
And you also don't divide things: right and wrong,
good and bad. It is not that I am above or below.
You are not caught up with good and bad, right and
wrong anymore. So, for example, if for any reason
you find my action to be anti-social, so whatever
punishment you give me, I take it, without any
questioning at all. I have no rights. Since I don't
have any rights, I don't have any duties either.
So, censorship also is absent.
One thing I must tell you is that you will never be
free from your conditioning. Never! No matter who
says what, there is no such thing as an
unconditioned mind. There is no such thing as
experiencing an unconditioned mind. Why do they
talk of that? You see, when I go to the
supermarket, the one thing I like the best is
coffee-cream yoghurt. I can only find it in
Switzerland. And once I start eating it there is no
control. Valentine, for example, used to hide a
kilo of almonds from me, like a child. I started
eating them when there were two kilos. She said,
"What's going on?"There's no control.
[Laughing] I'm not joking, I have no
control. I can't stop eating them, and once it is
removed, I don't remember the taste of almonds. So,
there is no such thing as an unconditioned mind.
Mind itself is condition. Mind itself is a
re-conditioner and it conditions itself in a
different way to survive, you see.
Question: You say that you don't have images
in your mind.
U.G.: No.
Question: Now, do you have thoughts or
concepts?
U.G.: No.
Question: That is to say, do you think of
what you are going to do next month: buying a plane
ticket, getting a visa?
U.G.: Only for practical purposes. If I
can't get a seat on the plane, then I have to tell
somebody that I'm arriving on another date, but I'm
never disappointed or anything.
Question: So when you don't have those
projects in mind for practical planning, you have
nothing in your head?
U.G.: No, nothing. My way of functioning is
that I am always occupied with what is happening at
that moment and there is no room for any
preoccupation. You are preoccupied with the things
that are not happening there. You see, this seems
to be the only difference, if there is any
difference. People imagine that I live in a void
where nothing is happening. How can there be
anybody in that state? But it is full with whatever
is happening at this moment. You know, so there is
no way you can put anything more in that, or move
away from that. So I am totally occupied with
whatever is happening and I can sit in front of the
hotel, go out and stand there for twenty four hours
watching how people are walking. You'll be
surprised that no two persons walk in exactly the
same way. It's something extraordinary, all of them
walk differently. No two faces are the same. As a
student of Botany, I studied the leaves under a
microscope. No two leaves are the same. So, if you
say that even twins look alike, their movements,
the way they are walking, it's something
extraordinary how they walk. You try that next
time, no two persons there in the street walk
exactly the same. The movements are different,
everything is different. So, I'm occupied with
that, you see. My attention is totally occupied and
filled with what is happening. So, don't imagine
that this person lives in a thoughtless state. I
know a lot of people who come and tell me, "I
experienced this in my thoughtless state." How the
hell do you know that you are in a thoughtless
state? The thought was very much there.
Question: So, is it like saying that we live
according to the knowledge we have of things?
U.G.: We are the knowledge.
Question: But you don't live according to
the knowledge you have of things?
U.G.: No, there is no continuity of
knowledge, because there is no need for the
continuity of knowledge. That is all that is there.
It's simple, it's consciousness. I become conscious
of the fact that you are a man, not a woman, only
when I use the knowledge I have, otherwise what is
the consciousness they are talking about? Nothing.
Now even the scientists are talking about
consciousness. One of the most undesirable things
that is happening in the field of science is that
they have come to the end of their tether. They
have to find out the answers for those problems
within that framework. They cannot look towards
Vedanta, nor towards religion, otherwise that is
going to completely destroy the whole thing, you
see. So, that is why I say that scientific thinking
is as much an aberration as the religious thinking
of man. And we admire science because of what it
has given us, the high technology and so on. So,
thought is a fascist in its birth, in its content
and in its expression. It is interested only in its
own survival. So, that is all that is there.
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