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So, there is no way
I can separate myself from what is happening out there and
what is happening inside. If there is no separateness from
what you are looking at, there is no way you can tell
yourself what is happening outside or what is happening
inside. There is no inside and outside there. The physical
eye does not look at that as "white", or never does it say
"it is dark". The sensory perceptions do not translate
anything whatsoever about what is happening out there or
inside of me. So, there is no way I can separate myself from
what I am looking at, out there, or inside of me. I can say
that "this is me", "this is not me", "I am happy", "I am
unhappy", "I am greedy", "I am not greedy", "I am jealous",
"I am not jealous". They have no meaning at all to me.
Q : So, do you not have any identification with things that
happen in your everyday life?
U. G. : No, I don't like to use the word identification. I
never translate that within the framework of the knowledge I
have. The need arises only when there is a demand from
outside. They are never self-initiated at all. It's an
automatic thing. For some reason, the space between the
cause and effect relationship doesn't operate all the time.
So, when there is a demand, then I can say that that is
probably the cause of this and this is the result of that
cause, but actually there is no space between cause and
effect. So the instrument which we use, that is, thinking,
or even thoughts, are born out of the cause and effect
relationship and there is no way you can understand anything
without creating the space between the cause and effect.
For example, death itself is a concept. The body does not
know that it is alive at this moment and you are not there
to preside over your own death. So, for all practical
purposes, there is no way I can tell myself that I am
living, that I am alive. If you ask me the question, "Are
you alive or are you dead?", I would certainly say that, "I
am alive." Why I say "I'm alive", is because of what I'm
taught by the physiologists and what the doctors tell us. I
am able to talk and respond and so because of that, they
conclude that I am a living being. That is the common
knowledge that is passed onto us, but there is no way that I
can experience the fact, that this is a living organism. No
way. So, when it is dead, all the knowledge that we have has
to come to an end.
We are only interested in one thing: "How?". Everyone asks
the question "How?". "How" should be eliminated from all
languages! "How?" means you want to know. By knowing more
and more, you have maintained the continuity of this
knowledge. So, you don't want that to come to an end, you
see. We know a lot, but at the same time we are all the time
asking this question, "How?"
Q : When you were young, did you know what you were looking
for?
U. G. : I was actually and factually looking for a man like
me who is here now. If I say, "like a man like me", you will
throw the question at me: "Do you know what you are like?"
Something vaguely like this. So I had to reject everybody,
you see. Not that I said to myself that I am looking for a
man like this guy who is sitting here, but actually when I
said to myself, "This is the one you are looking for", then
he disappeared, completely and totally.
One day I said to myself, "Why the hell have I wasted 49
years of my life wanting to be enlightened? I then said to
myself. "Now, you are an enlightened man. You are in the
same state as all those spiritual teachers: Buddha, Jesus,
everybody". So, that hit me so hard. "Until yesterday, you
told yourself that you wanted to be an enlightened man like
all those people. Now you tell yourself that you are an
enlightened man, that you are in the same state as all those
spiritual teachers." It hit me so hard. I said to myself,
"It is the teachers who say that you yourself are not
enlightened because of the knowledge that they have passed
on to me on how an enlightened man functions. So, it is the
same knowledge that tells me now that I am an enlightened
man. So there is nothing to this experience", I asked
myself, "So, how the hell do you know that you are an
enlightened man?" And then, this started like a whirlpool.
It went on. "How the hell do you know that you are in the
same state as all those people?" It went on and on and on
and on for fifteen minutes until it just stopped all of a
sudden, and what I was left with, that I really don't know.
What am I left with now? It's not out of modesty that I am
saying this. There is no way I can tell myself, "Who are
you?, What are you? What is there?"
Q : Could you say that there was no longer something
missing, that there was no longer the feeling that you had
to find something?
U. G. : Nothing , you see.
Q : So, it was complete?
U. G. : It was finished. And then the strangest thing from
then on was the senses took over. And then, I discovered the
real way the senses operate. There was no transmitter who
was saying, "that is a bright sun" or "it is dark" or "this
is hard, this is soft". I was looking at the cow there in
field, and I asked Valentine, who was sitting next to me on
the bench, "What is that?". She said, "A cow". And after
another five minutes, again, like a child, I asked her,
"What is that, Valentine?" She was so disgusted. "How many
times do I have to tell you that that is a cow? Don't you
know that?" You see, in the beginning it intrigued me. I
didn't even know what that was. Now, I'm in the same
situation and I never know what I'm looking at. If you ask
me the question, "What is that?", I would say "It is a
cow".
Q : But, when the thoughts came into your mind, did
everything ...
U. G. : One difference is that there is no way I can draw a
line and tell myself and tell others that this was the way I
was functioning before and this is the way I am functioning
now. There is no way I can draw a line. I always use this
crude simile: after wash, before wash. There is no way to
know how I was functioning. But basically, I tell you, that
there is no change in me at all, except that the demand, you
see, that I wanted to be something different from what I
thought I was. That is the only thing that is missing. And
another thing is that there is no way I can create an image
inside of me of what you look like. If I turn towards the
wall, away from you, this camera [pointing to his
eyes] is focused on that wall and there is no way I can
create an image of what you look like. No way. And if I turn
to this side again, and look at you, there is no need for me
to translate and tell myself that "that is you, and that you
are wearing blue jeans." Never do I tell myself all this
because there is no need for me now.
So there is no way I can create an image. Although I have
known Paul for thirty years, I don't remember what he looks
like, but when he's here in front of me, the computer throws
up the picture and recognises him, but it never tells itself
that that is Paul. It is not because I don't know. The data
bank, the memory bank is not in any way influenced by the
translator or the one who is bringing out the knowledge to
know. In that sense, there is no way I can create an image
of anything, of what it looks like. It's impossible for
me.
There is no such thing as total attention, at all. It is
just not possible. For example, if you look at that curtain
which is moving with the wind. It is the one thing that is
demanding your attention. I never tell myself what the eyes
are looking at and there is no way I can be separated from
what is there. I cannot separate myself from what the eyes
are looking at unless there is a need for that. And that
need arises only from somebody else who asks me something.
Do you understand? So never are my actions self-initiated.
Never. So, the moment the thought is born there, the action
is over. The separation occurs only when the knowledge comes
in and tells me that "that is a white curtain." You see,
otherwise where is the need for me to tell myself that? So,
why we do it is very simple. It is because we have to
maintain the continuity of knowledge. That is the only
reason. For example, you say that "that is white and that is
blue, you are this and that" and you go on and on and on.
That need is the only thing that is there; it is not the
"I", not the Self, not the Atman. Nothing is there, except
the need to maintain the continuity of the knowledge you
have about things out there and the things here
[pointing to himself].
So the only thing I do these days is only to talk about how
these senses are functioning. This body is born with an
extraordinary intelligence, unparalleled intelligence. And
there is no way you can match this with any amount of
knowledge you have. You cannot. So, whatever you think is
good for this body, whatever ideas you are putting into this
body, it is rejecting. That is why it doesn't need to know
anything, it doesn't need to have anything more. That
applies to every area of our existence. That's why I brush
aside the whole medical technology. I have never been to a
doctor, I don't eat anything that anybody recommends and I
say emphatically that modern day doctors are the modern day
witches, and modern day medical technology is the modern day
witchcraft, as far as I am concerned. Whatever they think is
good for the body, I don't eat. I eat that oatmeal there
[pointing to the table]. That is the latest I find,
it's called "Super Fast". You can find it only in London. I
have one bowl, a small bowl and then pour double cream,
triple cream, quadruple cream and I add a tiny weenie bit of
frozen pineapple juice, which I don't get anywhere except in
China. That's why I go to China. They have international
supermarkets. So, otherwise I don't take fruit juices, I
don't eat any vegetables. Nothing. You see, this body needs
some energy, some basic thermal units. You see, that's how I
would put it [laughing]. And that one bowl of
oatmeal porridge with a lot of cream, supplies the energy
that the body needs. I don't take walks and no exercise is
necessary. I have survived eighty years. So nothing of what
we consider to be good for the body is actually good for
this body.
So, what I am stressing all the time is how the body, freed
from this strangled hold of culture, functions. That's all
that I am describing. And there is no way you can control
the functioning of this body. Nothing you can do, you see.
The body doesn't actually need all that we feed it. It is a
pleasure movement. We eat for our pleasure. That's a
fact.
Q : Is there such a thing as Reality?
U. G. : No. Even if the scientists are trying to assert that
they know Reality better than all the spiritual teachers and
metaphysicists put together. There is no way you can
experience the Reality of anything. And I maintain and
assert with all the emphasis at my command, that which you
do not know, you cannot experience. What you do not know is
a concept , you see.
Q : Some people use the term 'pure subjectivity' to describe
Reality.
U. G. : Philosophers have talked about 'pure perception'.
There cannot be any perception, let alone pure perception,
without the perceiver. These are all the games that we play
with ourselves and with others. There cannot be any
perception without the perceiver. And why talk of pure
perception, I don't understand? So, this is also the way the
Indians have dealt with this problem. One disciple tells
others that "my guru is in the Turiya state, the highest
state." And according to me, the Turiya state is Alzheimer's
disease. You see, they don't have any problems, they don't
recognise anything, they don't experience anything.
Valentine had that, she was touching everything to establish
a relationship with the things around her. The sense of
touch is the most important sensory activity. Children begin
with that, and then all the other four senses follow.
So, that is why the people who are thinking all the time are
practically blind, in the sense that they have never looked
at anything in their life. For example, that fellow has
never looked at her, or she at him [pointing to a couple
in the room], because the only way he looks at her, or
her at him, is with the knowledge she has about him and you
project that knowledge on that person, but actually there is
no way the physical eye can look at anything. You have to
have knowledge about that. We project that knowledge on what
we are looking at. So, in exactly the same way, the Reality
they are talking about is something which cannot be
experienced at all, or known at all unless you use the
knowledge you have about the Reality of things, whether it
is a scientist or a religious man talking about Reality, or
pure perception. There can't be any perception first of all,
let alone pure perception. So, these are all theories, you
see.
You have people talking about God. All the theologies that
we are burdened with: the ontological, the teleological, the
cosmological proofs of the existence of God. Oh, my God, why
do we break our heads with all that knowledge? Because I
have more knowledge than you have so I feel superior. I have
verbal superiority. Shakespeare had only four thousand words
in his memory [laughing]. And now, how many millions
do we have.
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Q : What exactly is
awakening?
U. G. : There is no such thing as awakening because I can
never tell myself that "I am awake".
Q : So, then what happened to you when you were 49 years
old?
U. G. : There is no difference between the waking , dreaming
and the sleeping states. There is no difference. I don't
tell myself that "I am awake" at anytime, because I don't
tell myself that "there is light outside" or "dark in the
night". If you asked me, "Are you awake?", then I use the
knowledge that is given to me of how a wakeful man
functions. And I don't dream at all. There is no need for me
to dream. I also don't sleep for eight hours. I'm like a
cat, I take cat naps. I go to sleep at ten o'clock and wake
up ten minutes later. And then again at eleven o'clock
probably I go to sleep. So there is no way that I can say
that "I am asleep, or awake or dreaming". There are no
dreams. If you cannot create an image while you are awake,
there is no way you can create images while you are
sleeping. So there is no way. Someone else can say that I'm
sleeping or that I'm even snoring, but I can't say that
about myself.
You cannot tell yourself when you are asleep. Only when you
wake up you relate the so-called wakeful state to the state
that existed before, when you were sleeping, and you say
that you feel good because you slept well. You attribute
that to sleeping well. You didn't sleep well, you had a
disturbed night, the way you were telling me about last
night. You didn't sleep well. With reference to the state
that you think you are in at the present moment, otherwise
you cannot tell yourself anything about your sleep, whether
you were asleep, or in deep sleep, or disturbed sleep or
that you were dreaming. So, for me that problem doesn't
arise because I don't know that I am awake. Immediately, the
senses are functioning at their peak capacity all the time,
and they slow down, very slowly, because it has to renew
itself all the time. So, your eyes may be open but you see
nothing there for a fraction of a second. You see nothing,
you listen to nothing. So, it has to slow down, and then
once it stops [snapping his fingers], if you look at
things, it is not possible for you to look at because you
are not looking at anything. If you say that, "that is
light", you are not looking at it. You are projecting the
knowledge you have and telling me that "it is bright and
sunny". Otherwise, the physical eye never translates that as
"bright sun" or "dark". If you ask me I will say "it is". If
it is too bright, you can close your eyes and you turn to
some other side. You are not that. Automatically, it has
tremendous intelligence to protect itself. It knows how to
protect itself and how to survive. So, you have no part to
play in the functioning of this body. And then, you see, the
intelligence that is there takes over and takes care of
itself.
You know there is something very strange about this. The one
thing that has happened, if I can say that it has happened,
[I don't even know if anything has happened], is
that you are not translating anything there at all, never.
The translator is absent, totally absent. And along with the
translator, the selectivity also has gone. And you also
don't divide things: right and wrong, good and bad. It is
not that I am above or below. You are not caught up with
good and bad, right and wrong anymore. So, for example, if
for any reason you find my action to be anti-social, so
whatever punishment you give me, I take it, without any
questioning at all. I have no rights. Since I don't have any
rights, I don't have any duties either. So, censorship also
is absent.
One thing I must tell you is that you will never be free
from your conditioning. Never. No matter who says what,
there is no such thing as an unconditioned mind. There is no
such thing as experiencing an unconditioned mind. Why do
they talk of that? You see, when I go to the supermarket,
the one thing I like the best is 'coffee-cream yoghurt'. I
can only find it in Switzerland. And once I start eating
there is no control. Valentine, for example, used to hide a
kilo of almonds from me, like a child. I started eating them
when there were two kilos. She said, "What's going
on?"There's no control." [Laughing] I'm not joking,
I have no control. I can't stop eating them, and once it is
removed, I don't remember the taste of almonds. So, there is
no such thing as an unconditioned mind. Mind itself is
condition. Mind itself is a re-conditioner and it conditions
itself in a different way to survive, you see.
Q : You say that you don't have images in your mind.
U. G. : No.
Q : Now, do you have thoughts or concepts?
U. G. : No.
Q : That is to say, do you think of what you are going to do
next month: buying a plane ticket, getting a visa?
U. G. : Only for practical purposes. If I can't get a seat
on the plane, then I have to tell somebody that I'm arriving
on another date, but I'm never disappointed or anything.
Q. : So when you don't have those projects in mind for
practical planning, you have nothing in your head?
U. G. : No, nothing. My way of functioning is that I am
always occupied with what is happening at that moment and
there is no room for any preoccupation. You are preoccupied
with the things that are not happening there. You see, this
seems to be the only difference, if there is any difference.
People imagine that I live in a void where nothing is
happening. How can there be anybody in that state? But it is
full with whatever is happening at this moment. You know, so
there is no way you can put anything more in that, or move
away from that. So I am totally occupied with whatever is
happening and I can sit in front of the hotel, go out and
stand there for twenty four hours watching how people are
walking. You'll be surprised that no two persons walk in
exactly the same way. It's something extraordinary, all of
them walk differently. No two faces are the same. As a
student of Botany, I studied the leaves under a microscope.
No two leaves are the same. So, if you say that even twins
look alike, their movements, the way they are walking, it's
something extraordinary how they walk. You try that next
time, no two persons there in the street walk exactly the
same. The movements are different, everything is different.
So, I'm occupied with that, you see. So, my attention is
totally occupied, it's so filled with what is happening. So,
don't imagine that this person lives in a thoughtless state.
I know a lot of people who come and tell me that, "I
experienced this in my thoughtless state." How the hell do
you know that you are in a thoughtless state? The thought
was very much there.
Q : So, is it like saying that we live according to the
knowledge we have of things?
U. G. : We are the knowledge.
Q : But you don't live according to the knowledge you have
of things?
U. G. : No, there is no continuity of knowledge, because
there is no need for the continuity of knowledge. That is
all that is there. It's simple, it's consciousness. I become
conscious of the fact that you are a man, not a woman, only
when I use the knowledge I have, otherwise what is the
consciousness they are talking about? Nothing. Now even the
scientists are talking about consciousness. One of the most
undesirable things that is happening in the field of science
is that they have come to the end of their tether. They have
to find out the answers for those problems within that
framework. They cannot look towards Vedanta, nor towards
religion, otherwise that is going to destroy the whole
thing, completely, you see. So, that is why I say that
scientific thinking is as much an aberration as the
religious thinking of man. And we admire science because of
what it has given us, the high technology and so on. So,
thought is a fascist in its birth, in its content and in its
expression. It is interested only in its own survival. So,
that is all that is there.
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