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Christopher:
Yes. In insight meditation there are four objects
of the mind: body, feelings, thoughts and sense
objects. You observe these things, see them coming
and going, and you don't cling to any of them. But
as you point out, often there is not the enquiry
into the observer, who seems to stand outside of
all of this.
Papaji: Yes, that's what I meant. To whom
does this body belong, to whom do feelings belong,
to whom do thoughts belong and to whom do the sense
objects belong? These must belong to somebody. Now,
let us reject what can be rejected. The body is
made of the elements and does not have the capacity
to realise the Self, so reject it. Same goes for
feelings, thoughts and sense objects. So reject all
of them. But what happens when you reject the act
of rejecting? You will arrive at some Unknown
destination, which is beyond body, feelings,
thoughts and objects, and which can never be
rejected. This is Reality and everything belongs to
It and is due to It. When you reject everything you
discover freedom, and in freedom I am absolutely
alone.
Christopher: What do you mean by rejection?
Is it something that occurs spontaneously as a
letting go? Or is it the clear affirmation, "I do
not want to be identified with all of this."
Papaji: No, no, not that. I am tackling what
is real. Supposing now we are all waking, we are
all in the waking state and what you say everybody
accepts – the body, the feelings, the thoughts
and the objects. Now let us slowly move towards the
sleep state. So what happens? Let the body, the
mind, the feelings and all these things approach.
So at the last second, the last second before
sleep, what do you do at that time? Do you see,
when you slip away, do you see all these
things?
Christopher: No.
Papaji: What did you do to go away, to enter
into sleep, to reject all these things, to enter
sleep?
Christopher: Nothing.
Papaji: No. No. Let us see. Simply don't say
anything. Approach sleep. "I have office work. I
have to go tomorrow. Some friends come. Tomorrow
there are discussions to have – how to arrange
the wedding of my daughter. He is coming at 11",
let us say. He disposes of everything. He'll see
tomorrow. To fall sleep, what does he do to abandon
everything? And unless he abandons everything, he
cannot enter sleep.
Christopher: We might say there is a loss of
interest in the activities of the daily life and
then there is a natural...
Papaji: No. No. Not the interest. I'm not
calling for the interest only. How do you enter
into sleep? Why do you have to reject all these
things to enter into sleep and why should you go to
sleep rejecting all these pleasurable things? Your
wife is next to you, why should you reject her? You
have to reject your wife, who is very close to you,
in order to sleep. Why do you reject the things
that you love throughout the day? Your house, your
gold, even pleasurable things. Why should you
reject all these beauties of life? Why do you go,
why do you reject all this samsara in order to go
to sleep?
Christopher: Out of necessity.
Papaji: Yes, because it's a necessity. If
that is the necessity, then everything else is not
the necessity. When you sleep you are much happier
than during your waking life. If it was not so, you
would never go to sleep.
Christopher: So you are saying that entering
sleep is the simultaneous dropping off of the four
objects of the mind.
Papaji: Yes, we can agree on this point
– a simultaneously dropping of everything.
Only when you awake in the morning, you can say
that you had slept. So who is awake during sleep?
Do you see anything in deep sleep?
Christopher: No, nothing can been seen.
Papaji: And are you happy or unhappy while
you sleep?
Christopher: Personally, very content.
Papaji: You are very content. So this is
contentment arrived at by contentment, you see.
Suppose you are in a supermarket and have already
bought many things. Will you be happier going to
another marketplace to buy more things or returning
home directly?
Christopher: Well, I'd return home,
easily.
Papaji: The marketplace represents the body
senses and all their transactions with objects.
This is the market. If all these transactions could
bring satisfaction, happiness, pleasure and beauty,
nobody would like to go to sleep or return home.
There is something else much more precious than
worldly transactions that makes us prefer sleep. It
is more precious than everything else. Now, who is
awake during sleep?
Christopher: Nobody that I know.
Papaji: Something is awake during sleep.
When you wake up, you say, "I slept very well and
was very happy. I didn't think about anything." Who
experienced this happiness? Who was it?
Christopher: For that I have no answer.
Papaji: Excellent. Excellent. Excellent.
[laughter] I won't forget that face.
Christopher: I want to get back to that
edge. There is, shall we call it, the fading away
of objects.
Papaji: Reality cannot be faded out.
Christopher: No. So at that edge before the
vastness of sleep, the immeasurable, there can be
the sense of "I", the oneself or the observer.
Papaji: When you wake up?
Christopher: No, I'm talking just before the
vastness of falling asleep. Right on the edge of
sleep.
Papaji: All this is samsara and you are in
the waking state. Now, you are about to dose off,
but sleep has not yet started.
Christopher: Exactly, this we call the
sakshi, which means pure awareness or
observation.
Papaji: You are at this point here and the
beyond, the unknown Emptiness has not yet been
experienced.
Christopher: That's it. That's what I'm
trying to express.
Papaji: Now let us see what happens here.
Everything that had to be rejected has been
rejected. The whole waking state has ended and the
Beyond is not yet seen. At this moment, what do you
see?
Christopher:
At this moment, there is some identification with
the known called "I", which has this notion of
being solid and permanent.
Papaji: This "I" is not the "I" which I'm
talking about. This "I" and everything else has
been absorbed by the Unknown. There is no return to
the known. I'm speaking of that moment between the
known and the Unknown. When this "I" that has known
everything stands before the Unknown, it becomes
shy and dissolves. On facing the Unknown an immense
happiness surges up. When this "I" is face to face
with Emptiness, it will simply disappear.
Christopher: So at that critical point,
there is a humility or a trust that its own
dissolution will take place in deep sleep.
Papaji: Its dissolution will take place in
happiness – to leave everything and embrace
something else which has no name and no form. "I"
will jump into nectar, beauty, love, where there is
nothing to cling to and no one who can cling.
Subject and object are not there, neither the
thought process. Even the mind is not there to
claim that experience. No one can speak of this
experience. Can you give me some news about it? I
would be happy if you could.
Christopher: I have good news.
[laughter] So all the methods, practices,
traditions and processes eventually take you to
this end, this edge.
Papaji: All sadhanas take you to the end and
advise you to reject "me". Sadhan means any kind of
practice, and sadhana means "Don't practice." Na
means "don't". So if you give up all practices,
those you have been doing so far, what will happen?
You come to the end. When you have unloaded all the
karmas which you are carrying on your
shoulders – the
karma of the body, the karma of the mind, the karma
of death
[three kinds of karmas are abandoned]
– when you have abandoned them, then you are
absolutely naked. And
when you are naked you will jump into dissolution,
never to return. Even if you cannot decide whether
to jump or not, there is something behind pushing
you.
Christopher: Are you the pusher?
Papaji: The pusher is the same as the one
that has to be pushed. Traditional religions say
that you need some messenger to help you "go to the
end", some son of God to give you a push when you
are hesitant to jump. But truly speaking, no push
is needed, nor are you at any end, nor have you
started from somewhere else, nor have you to jump
anywhere. You are here and now.
Christopher: This is very significant. One
hasn't started anything, one hasn't arrived at any
critical point, and no push is required.
Papaji: No samsara and no nirvana.
Christopher: So the whole construction of
the mind is a complete fiction, yet it appears very
real. Going somewhere, reaching a
place, making a jump
– it has a powerful grip. It grips the
consciousness, the
belief.
Papaji:
Mind is very powerful. The mind suggests that you
are bound and you accept it. This is the creation
of samsara. Then the mind suggests to be free from
samsara, and then the practice starts. This is all
a concept! Nirvana is only a concept, another trap
of the mind. So how do you escape this trap? When
you call it a "trap" you are out of it. You know by
a special spontaneous knowledge that all this is
just a trap of the mind. Then you understand that
there is nothing to do and nowhere to go. Just be.
You have come from nowhere and you will never go
anywhere.
Christopher: It takes my breath away!
[laughter]
Papaji: Here everything can be accepted,
because there is nothing to be rejected and nothing
to be accepted. Therefore you are free to accept
everything.
Christopher: This gives me a great freedom
at the moment. What would you say to a person who
seems attracted to awakening but believes that it
is not possible because of too many demands and
duties in daily life?
Papaji: He should only be made to wake up
from this dream of duty and realise that he is
already and always free. Man is only dreaming. This
man is asleep who says, "I have family duties, job
duties and have no time to find my Self." This man
is asleep. But a man who wakes up from the dream,
he has no family, nor any job. He is always free
and alone. Nothing has ever touched him. He is so
very alone that even sleeping doesn't touch him.
When you see anything, any name or any form, it
means you are asleep. This whole samsara that has
lasted for millions of years is just a thought in
this instant of time. And this instant is empty.
Just surrender this "I" which thinks it is bound.
Remove the doubt that you are not already free.
Then fear will leave you forever. All this is
samsara and doesn't exist and there is only one
Reality.
Christopher: Now being in that state, in
that dream world which is all going on and
on, one of the
themes that has become important both in India and
in the West
is surrender. It has become a major point of
discussion, which has sometimes led to
misunderstanding.
When a person feels lost in the dream world as
you describe,
then there is a wish to renounce or to surrender to
something greater
than the dream world of family and responsibilities
and such. What
do you say? What is your response to this surrender
which has been used in religious life and religious
traditions?
Papaji: That has been imposed on you by the
shepherds.
Christopher: Shepherds?
Papaji: Shepherds, the leaders of religions.
All these leaders are shepherds.
Christopher: Shepherds, yes I
understand.
Papaji: Shepherds, they all have been
shepherds. Whether you herd sheep or you
herd men, they are
all shepherds who give you this teaching and the
sheep want to be herded. Only sheep are herded, not
the lions. [laughter]
Christopher: Sometimes, from the shepherds,
a strong message goes out:
"Surrender, give up, let go, follow me."
Papaji: It has not worked.
It has created many
wars. "Return to me, come to me, I
will give you rest."
It has created wars. See what is happening today.
All these
kinds of shepherds are not worth believing. I don't
think it has benefited mankind so
far.
I had a vision in a very awake state. I had a
vision of all this samsara, of
everything, all these things. I told this to a
French bishop, a Father. I
spoke to him about this, my incarnations. I have
seen myself in many incarnations. I never
knew, because
I couldn't speak to anybody about it. I didn't find
anybody else. So
in that vision I see a different species and
I recognise
myself in previous incarnations. I feel that
everything was my master. I have seen that
everything is me – this is me and this is me
and this is me. I have seen many
incarnations and
I've gone to those graves also. I have gone to
those chapels also
where I have been a priest, speaking about samsara.
All this I have seen
– in a space of time, in an instant of time
all that has happened – millions
of years I have spent and in an instant of time, I
have seen the samsara
from the beginning to the end that happens to us
– all this is a thought.
This experience everyone is going to have at the
end. You will see. Everybody will see. This is an
instant of time. That instant is empty, I have
seen. I cannot say, but I can still use these
words. It is All. Nothing
exists or nothing non-exists. This is what I speak
of, again and again. Emptiness.
One is always free.
Christopher: In the morning satsangs your
directness about the nature of Emptiness,
about the the
immediacy of It, this immediate realisation of
seeing is a very
rare opportunity for people. Here and elsewhere,
there is the heart's yearning, a
deep yearning to
realise the ocean, yet sometimes a person feels, "I
can't because I'm holding on, I'm
holding back." Then
comes the message of surrender. The
major religious
teachers of the past and present in both India and
the West say, "It is not
a surrender to me but rather a surrender to the
Truth, to the here and now, to
Emptiness, to God." And sometimes there
is the experience of
surrendering. What do you think? Is that still
the shepherd
and the sheep?
Papaji: This surrender, I think it is
misinterpreted by the religious people –
religion has misinterpreted it. I
think this "surrender" word has not been
understood. Surrender is when
I abandon the concept that "I am bound". This is
surrender.
Christopher: Genuine surrender?
Papaji: This is what has been meant. Simply
surrender this concept that "I am
bound". There is no
question of "to whom" – this is not
important. Simply
abandon this false concept.
Christopher: Excellent. Excellent. This is
the clearest explanation of surrender that I have
heard. Surrender this "I" which thinks it is
bound. [laughter]
Excellent! Can we touch on one or two other
topics? With
the relative and the becoming and the development
of this model it
seems to gain a momentum, a strength to it. It's as
though sometimes the strength of the relative seems
to hide Emptiness.
Papaji: Yes
Christopher: A person's relationship to the
process of becoming, or change, is
that the person thinks it is the real thing and
continues. When that is occurring there may be a
realisation. When there is a realisation,
the dream finishes. Sometimes we anticipate that if
the dream
finishes for the person, they realise that they are
the ocean. They
realise this. Sometimes
one expects the expression will be love in the
world, compassion
in the world, care for others in the world, but
sometimes there
is no obvious manifestation of the expression. The
dream is finished.
There is the realisation of the vastness, and yet
the expression doesn't
seem to be so obvious.
Papaji: The expressions can be in several
ways. One man becomes like a rock,
doesn't give any
expression; another man behaves like a child with
childlike behaviour.
Christopher: What is childlike behaviour?
Have you got someone like Chaitanya or
Ramakrishna in mind,
is that that kind of childlike playful dance?
Papaji: Childlike behaviour – there is
one saint, but you may not have heard his
name. Childlike
behaviour is like Shuka Deva.
Christopher: Shuka Deva.
Papaji: Yes, behaving like a seven-year-old
child. Another one's behaviour is like a
madman. Either a man
keeps dumb like a rock, there is no expression,
or his
behaviour is like that of a child or a lunatic.
Christopher: A lunatic? But you are none of
those, are you? [laughter]
Please give us a
description of your expression. You do not look
like a lunatic
and certainly not like a child, and not like a
rock. What do you say?
Papaji: This is what the others say in the
scriptures. You speak about behaviour. One man came
from England, James was his name. He asked me
the same
question. After enlightenment, what is the
behaviour? He
said, "I've gone to many people and now I'm coming
from Bangkok." He had been to someone, I cannot
remember his name. He came to Bangalore.
In those days I was working in the mines and then
he came to me
and he asked me, "I am not satisfied by the answers
people have given me.
What is going to be the behaviour of a person after
enlightenment?" So
I only told him, "You get enlightened first and
then you will know how you
will behave. An enlightened person will not ask
this question at all. You
don't worry. You leave it aside."
Then he stayed for
some time with me and then somehow he
declared, "I
am enlightened. I am enlightened."
Then I said, "You are a teacher, a teacher in
Manchester. You go back and act
as a teacher. You are not to change. Just remove
the doubt that it was a snake. It was always a rope
and never a
snake. You need not change. Only the fear is
gone. Fear of
death, fear of suffering. All this is samsara. Only
this fear has gone away
from your mind, which was creating fear in your
mind because of the wrong
identification of the rope for a snake.
Christopher: Now in situations like that,
and I think that is a very clear
illustration, generally
it is said that in enlightenment, in awakening, or
realisation the
karma has finished, the samsara has finished. After
awakening, it would
appear for some people at times that some ego
identification takes
place. "I am superior, I know the Truth" and the
"I" appears, the karma,
the movement of "I" reappears. Sometimes that
is accommodated,
accepted and accommodated. Sometimes, for some
people, it leads to a doubt about their original
experience, their original realisation.
So what happens to one's karma after awakening?
Papaji: According to advaita, this body is
here because of previously accumulated karma.
That's how they explain it. It's like when you roll
a ball on the ground, the initial momentum will
determine the length of time that the ball will
roll. So when someone wakes up, all the stored
karma in the memory gets destroyed because there is
no longer a doer of selfish actions. And the
initial momentum, due to the residual effects of
the karma which gave us this body, will continue up
to the end of this life. This will have no affect
on the awakened one. He now acts according to the
circumstances that appear before him with total
indifference, knowing that it is unreal. There is
no future and no past for him, and he will not be
reborn because he is desireless.
Christopher: Do you agree with this?
Papaji: I don't believe in karma. There is
no such thing as past karma, present karma, nor
future karma. For example, a man who has already
been married twice is planning to get married in
the near future. He married his first wife ten
years, his second wife one year ago and his third
marriage is just about to take place. But, in
between this function of the upcoming marriage, he
dies. With his death, all three wives are widowed
– his past wife, recent wife and wife-to-be.
Like this, when a man dies to his ego and no longer
has the feeling of doership, all his karma is
widowed. Karma no longer has anyone to cling to, no
place to abide. A liberated man only reacts to the
present circumstances and has no concept of being a
doer. His ego is dead and he is absolutely free. I
believe that a man who has no doubts cannot have
any karma.
Christopher: Right.
Papaji: A free man who is not bound never
feels that he has acted. For him, nothing ever
happens. He knows that he has always been free and
nothing has ever changed. How can he have any karma
now, and how can he take another birth? Everything
is finished for him.
Christopher: So in a way you're saying that
when the husband dies, his wives die too.
Papaji: They are widowed. The husband dies,
but the wives continue to live. In the case of the
liberated man who has no ego, he never says "this
is mine" or "this belongs to me". All doership and
all sense of possession have vanished, so he is
dead while alive. He can do whatever he likes
because no impressions can disturb his mind. He is
dead to his ego and his actions are free from any
reactions, from any karma and from any
self-interest. Whereas someone who thinks that he
is the doer will reap the consequences of his
actions. You become what you think, you see. The
free man will reap the consequences of his freedom
and the other man will be punished by his own
thought process. But in the ultimate Truth, nothing
ever exists.
In a dream somebody becomes a king and someone else
becomes a beggar, but both belong to the dream. The
samsara is exactly like this. Ultimately, there
have never been kings and beggars at all.
Everything appears from one Source and only That is
true. Once you recognise that you are that Source,
then you will realise that you have always been
free and never been bound. Here in satsang, some
people understand this instantly, in this moment.
Freedom is here and now, so why postpone it by
practising something? Freedom can only be realised
in this instant and all practices demand time and
effort. That which is available now will be
available in 30 years, so why not do it now? It is
unchanging and always available here in this
instant.
Christopher: In your communications, a
person tells
you they are realising something in the
moment, right here
and now. There's no reference to the past,
history and
all their long practices, which are all a
distraction. This
person says to you, "I see, I realise,
I understand." They taste something that
they have not
tasted before. And you have a reputation
for being very
strongly affirmative of somebody's
experience. I have
heard that sometimes you say, "So now you
see."
Papaji: Yes.
Christopher: Like that, do you think it's
valuable to be
very affirmative to the person when they are
tasting something for the first time in the here
and now? It's very powerful, your warmth and
kindness, and it goes on in
the dialogue. Do
you think that is vital to give them trust
in what they are
realising in the moment?
Papaji: I see. You mean to say if somebody
comes and he asks me a question and I reply
to him, and it is
affirmative how he takes it. Am I right, is this
what you mean?
Christopher: No. It's more that some
questioning has already taken place. You are
listening to the
person and the person is telling you, "Yes,
Poonjaji, I realise
what you are saying. I realise the liberating
essence of here and now."
Then Poonjaji is very positive towards this person.
Very directly so.
Papaji: Yes. That's what I meant. To answer
this question – I am absolutely
empty while
listening. I don't search for any answer to the
question asked of me. I just keep
empty without any
thought, unconcerned with what is going on. If
this man hits
into the Emptiness with any desire, whatsoever it
is, the answer will
come from Emptiness directly and not from
Poonjaji.
Christopher: Yes. So in that time, you have
no substance, no presence.
Papaji: No. It's not my concern. He
asks a question not to Poonjaji nor to my body,
so to whom is
this question addressed? This
question is asked. It is responsible to respond to
that person. If it is
a question of freedom, I cannot bestow freedom to
anybody. So
he is asking this of something which is freedom
itself, so that question is asked to that Unknown,
so I have no interference. It
will take care of the person who asks.
Christopher: It occurs with me. A person is
participating in a retreat, I engage in
some dialogue with
the person and sometimes in the
communication itself
or sometimes in the course of the day, the person
is realising something
and the joy of that realisation, the liberation
– the person then
comes to talk about this with me.
Generally speaking, I take more a note of
appreciation to the
person, and when the person is speaking
of profound things,
of realised things, I will sometimes say to
the person,
then or a few days later, "Let us see in one
year and a day
whether this realisation is still alive
with you." Because
sometimes the person can speak of
realisation, speak
of clear seeing, but they leave the company of the
teacher, the company
of the retreat, the company of name and form, and
then there's
the memory. So the realisation is sometimes not as
deep as the person
thinks.
Papaji: When you give some suggestion to
somebody else about this teaching to a
person who comes to
you, to somebody who comes to a meditation retreat,
when you speak or try to explain about
freedom to that
person – so you are passing on
something which is
not known to you or somebody else, so that is
acting, you
see.
Christopher: Acting?
Papaji:
What prompts you to speak? The tongue is
speaking, the mind is thinking. There
are words. But
where do you get this power to think and to speak
and to deliver something
else? What is
that? Does it belong to you? Does
it belong to Christopher?
Christopher: Oh, absolutely not.
Papaji: So it is the direct responsibility
of that Unknown which is speaking and thinking
through Christopher, delivering a response to
somebody else. If
you know this is happening, it will hit the bull's
eye for the other person also.
His desire is also coming from the same "I want to
be free". This desire is coming from somewhere that
he doesn't know. This
thought, "I want to be free" comes from the same
place. So he wants freedom and goes to a teacher
who tells him how to be free. Both
these things have come from the same Source –
"I want to be
free" and the teacher's words, "You do this and you
will be free." They
both know each other, the Source is one.
Only when you know
that the Source is the same, you will understand.
If you say, " I am quite able to give freedom or
enlightenment to
a person", then it will not work. When I am just
acting and it has been dictated
by a Source whom I do not know, only then it will
work. This is called teaching.
Christopher: The teaching is not a
teaching.
Papaji: This is called teaching. The rest
is preaching.
The teacher has no teaching of his own.
He speaks, but what
is pushing him to speak, you see? He doesn't have
any responsibility
for what has been spoken or what has happened, and
it helps the people. Simply you live as a free man,
immaculate, empty man, this is the best
teaching that a
teacher has to give to somebody. You must smell the
fragrance. You
must sit quietly, that's all. Sit
absolutely quiet. No thought. Absolutely
empty. This
teaching is the best teaching, which nobody will
reject and
everybody will be benefited, you see.
Christopher: I appreciated the
question which you
directed to one of the people here, "Who are
you?" and
then you said, "Before your mind moves."
You asked someone
sitting here, "Who are you?" and then before his
mind could move, the nectar is there, isn't it?
Papaji: Yes.
Christopher: So I think that sometimes in
the Vipassana insight meditation,
sometimes the nectar
is lost. There's too much asking, too much
looking and missing
That, and as you say Emptiness, in the
non-teaching of
no teacher, there is something else, some sweetness
is showing.
Where there is no teacher and no student, then a
sweetness can
be revealed.
Papaji: This is a fact. Thank you for your
visit.
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